Do You Need Permission To Create?

Jeffrey Madoff: This is Jeffrey Madoff, and welcome to our podcast called Anything and Everything with my partner, Dan Sullivan.
 
Dan Sullivan: We were just chatting, Jeff, before, and you were talking about an interview you did, and somebody asked you the question, what gives you permission to create? I found that striking, what the context was of the person interviewing you, because when I come up with new stuff and take it through to where I can see it and where other people can see it, whether that's writing or whether it's, you know, diagrams or, you know, anything, it never struck me that I was supposed to seek permission to do that.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah, I'm not even really clear in that sense what permission means. You know, there's a saying in production, which is ask forgiveness, not permission. Because clearly, if you're asking permission, you're giving someone power to exercise over you in certain situations. And if it's a new idea, how do they even really understand what they're granting permission for? So how would you define permission?
 
Dan Sullivan: Well, that you can't move forward unless somebody else says yes. Yeah, and what really struck me, and I'm wondering if you and I were born without this, was that there's sort of a social filter, that your first consideration when you have a new idea, there is a social filter, and that you have to, you know, present a proposal and to get permission to move forward. And I'm just wondering if in the 1940s you were born without this. But I think it has a lot to do, you brought up as part of your answer, the parents you had. And I think that's true in my case, that my parents just gave me a lot of free reign to do whatever I wanted to do within certain limits. You know, I mean, there were certain safety limits and there were certain territory limits and everything else. But outside of that, I can't remember them ever commenting on, you know, what I chose to spend my time doing.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: You know, it's funny when you mention within certain limits. I was at a cookout, this was many years ago, with some friends and friends of theirs, and they had maybe a two-year-old kid, one of the guests, and I saw on the grass the kid was crawling towards was a knife that had fallen off the side of the grill when they were barbecuing. And so I went to pick it up, and then the mother said, don't pick that up. I said, what do you mean? She said, because she'll learn that knives are sharp and she can hurt herself if she hurts herself. And I picked up the knife and put it back up on the table. And to put it into lexicon that we're talking about now, I didn't ask her permission to pick up the knife. And when she gave that reason, I said, that's incredibly crass and dangerous. Do you leave the stove on when you take something off of it so that they know the top of the stove is hot and they learn that lesson? She goes, well, yes, we do. So I said, well, if your kid makes it to the teenage years, you know, you've avoided certain problems. But she said, we're the parent, you should ask permission. I said, I'm not asking permission when quick action can possibly prevent a bad accident.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, I mean, you know, I think if I can remember some of the changes in conversation about parenting and raising children over the years, there was a point where there was a line that got crossed that children were really born wise. and children have wisdom and, you know, they know what's right and wrong. And my experience is they don't.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Well, I think, you know, it's interesting because that's kind of the trope of whether it's a Peter Pan story, you know, and there are those stories, even like a Forrest Gump, who is, in a sense, an innocent. And so there's that framing of that kind of clear vision into something that a child has, which is true to a point, you know, because everything is new. And so their responses are maybe more unfiltered. But I don't think when the wisdom that you're talking about, I don't think there's the wisdom of children. No, I just think that they're at hopefully we all keep learning our whole lives and stay curious our whole lives. But there are consequences, which is why it's good to have parents around if your kids don't have any guidance at all.
 
Dan Sullivan: And so I think, you know, yeah, I just saw I was reading an article in that recounted part of a conversation and the person was talking, what kind of parent are you? And he says, well, I've got three things I have to do before they're 18. I got to make sure they're fed. First of all, I got to make sure they're safe. Number two, I got to make sure they're fed. Number three, I got to make sure they're educated. Outside of that, I don't know what else I can do, you know, and probably loved if they felt loved, it would probably be huge. But my sense is that if you really believe that humans are unique and every brain that's born will find a way of operating differently from other brains, you don't have any control how they're going to do that. You don't really have any control. But you can focus on certain skills that's going to be very beneficial for them to know before they depart from the house.
 
My parents were, you know, I'm a fifth child, and both of them were fifth children too, so there was an unusual set of circumstances. I think they had more of an angle on me than they did the other children, just from their own experience. So they gave me an enormous amount of freedom just to how I spent my days, what objects I turned into toys, what adventures I played in my mind. That was my own doing. I don't know what age it was, but I was given tasks, and I was let to know that I had to do the tasks every day. You know, there was a point where I could wash dishes, and I would wash dishes. There was a point where I could set the table for dinner, and I set the table. I clearly got the message, and you do this every day. So I think that was good. You know, there was lots of work-related activities that I was given the moment physically I was able to do them. I expect you had that, too.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: There were things I had to do, yes. I mean, it's quite different because how many kids were there in your family? Seven, was it?
 
Dan Sullivan: Seven, yeah.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah. So, you know, it becomes also management. It's not just parenting. You got to get the food on the table for seven people. The laundry has got to get done for seven people.
 
Dan Sullivan: The house has to be cleaned and beds have to be made. But I was making beds at six or seven years old, not only my own, but other people's beds. They got up and went to work.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: You could have been in the hospitality business, Dan.
 
Dan Sullivan: I could have been. I could have been.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah, I think that what your friend said, the basic, well, I have to, what was it? Feed them, educate them, and …
 
Dan Sullivan: Oh, keep them safe.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Right.
 
Dan Sullivan: Keep them safe, feed them, make sure they're educated.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Right. Yeah. And I think it's a lot more than that. And you added one of those already, which is to feel loved. Because I think that leaves a dark hole in people that is never filled. Because that's the most primary relationship you have. And if you can't trust that fundamental relationship that one has with a mother or a father, that's—
 
Dan Sullivan: You don't know how to trust.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: That's right. And if you don't know how to trust, you also don't know how to connect. And so I think that there's a lot more than that because on a day-to-day basis, whether we know it or not, we're modeling behavior that kids will either copy or adapt or reject. And depending on, you know, what that is. So it's, you know …
 
Dan Sullivan: I think they're always watching.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Absolutely.
 
Dan Sullivan: I mean, it's like being a owner of a company. You're always being watched.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: And the thing about kids that I learned was they don't forget. And that was quite a lesson. When my kids were five, you know, I have twins who you've met, Jake and Audrey, and they really wanted a dog. And I said, I'll get you a dog. We're not going to get a dog now. When are we going to get a dog? And I said, well, I need to know that you guys will take care of it. Right now, I don't have that sense that you'll take care of it. You're just not old enough to do that, to go out and walk on your own in New York and to do that. How old do we have to be? I said, 11. I think when you're 11, you could do that, walk across the street to the park and do that. I figured I bought myself six years there and they weren't going to remember this. Well, what's the first thing they ask on the morning of their 11th birthday?
 
Dan Sullivan: Can we get the dog?
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Exactly. That's right. And I said, no, we're not going to get a dog. And, you know, Augie says, well, dad, are you going to break your word to us? And I said, I guess I am, yes, because we're not getting a dog. And I love dogs, but we're not getting a dog because I don't really have the proof that, you know, Audrey's response to clean up her room, because it would upset Margaret, Jake was very meticulous in putting everything away, keeping everything organized. Audrey is more like me. If you look at my desk, it looks like a dump truck backed up from Staples and just dumped papers and folders and all that on it. And so, Audrey's probably six. And Margaret said, I can't stand looking in your room. And Audrey said, I'll keep the door shut. That was the solution. You know, I thought that was pretty smart. But I also have to say that in most cases, I don't trust … The other thing that you just pointed out, that children are very literal.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yes. Yes. Children aren't into metaphors. They're into … literal measurements.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah. And I have to say, in most cases, I don't trust the wisdom of adults either, you know, especially when you're coming up with new ideas. I do believe in talking to trusted friends who will give you honest feedback. It doesn't mean it's gonna stop me or motivate me to do something, but I think that wisdom is only gained through years and experience. And if you ignore your surroundings and you aren't tuned in, you can get pretty old without having any wisdom.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, and you know, the other thing is that wisdom is not guaranteed.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: That's right. That's right.
 
Dan Sullivan: I don't think that there's really any connection, for the most part, between your age and your wisdom. I think, you know, when I find really unobservant individuals who are 70 years old, they practiced.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yes, for 70 years. That's right.
 
Dan Sullivan: Whatever you are at 70, you've practiced.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: That's right.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, you've got that for a reason.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah, you earned that. Well, Dylan Thomas had a great phrase. I think it was, I don't remember the exact age, but I think he said, at 40, you have the face you deserve. And I always found that really interesting because there are people, and of course there's exceptions, but there are people that you can kind of just look at and get a sense of because they sort of froze into that position many years before. A friend of mine's father and I did not get along. He was very narrow-minded, a bigot, and we would get into arguments about things. Now he was, by the way, at that time when we were in high school, he was probably early forties, you know, which is weird to think about. And he had arthritis in his neck. So he couldn't really turn his head like that. It was always, he had to pivot. He couldn't do that, you know. And I said to him, you know, I find it really interesting, you're a physical manifestation of your mental deficiencies. You can only look in one direction and you can't look beyond that. Now, he didn't fully understand how much I was insulting him.
 
Dan Sullivan: Fortunately, he missed the point.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah, because he was looking here, not here. But I just found that so fascinating that his physical manifestation of his narrow mindedness and limited vision became physical. It was just kind of interesting to me.
 
Dan Sullivan: You know, there's a lot to that. But this thing about permission is really an interesting one, because, you know, at some point you're getting permission from somewhere to do it, you know. And my sense is that generally, you know, when I create something new and I come up with a lot of new stuff, you know, a new book every quarter, new tools, and I'm just thinking it through right now, you know, I don't have the answer, but I think…
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Well, I'm giving you permission to do that, Dan.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah, I know, I know. You're easy, you know, I mean, you're an easy, you're easy to do. But I think I'm a great believer in history and that other people did this, and history gives me permission. Not my present circumstances gives me permission, but the history of people who have been creators gives me permission to do this. Do you have that too? It's not that I would put it that way.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: I think if I'm looking at the past for certain things, like what you're talking about historically, in a way, the word that comes to mind is that it inspires me, or gives me incentive to take an idea further or reinterpret it and make it my own if it's a story or, you know, whatever. But I don't look at that as permission because that's become kind of a new vogue in, you know, interviews is about and self-help is about permission.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, there's actually another word, two words that have become vogue. One is permission and the other one is being vulnerable. Have you heard vulnerable?
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Oh, yeah.
 
Dan Sullivan: And people say, boy, that was really vulnerable for you to talk about that. And I said, you mean when you say vulnerable, you mean tell the truth? Is that what you're talking about? Telling the truth. I said it happened. I'm just telling you what happened. You know, and they said, boy, you're really being vulnerable doing that. But it goes back to, because I've tried to come to grips, why do people feel that, you know, and I remember one of my points about talking about turning points in my life was the day that I was both divorced and bankrupt on the same day, you know, and I've told you this story and people come up to me and say, boy, that's really vulnerable for you to talk about that. And I said, well, it happened and it's way in the past and I turned it around. So what's the problem there? But I think people who feel that there's something vulnerable of telling, you know, an actual truth about yourself are living in another world of filters. And I go back, there's a social filter here, you know, and I have to tell you the social filter, it comes in when I'm trying to sell something, but it doesn't come in when I'm trying to create something.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: You know, I think that the social filter that you're talking about, when you're talking about permission and getting the okay from somebody, my response the first time I was asked the question, because I've been asked this question a lot in these interviews, is, you know, do you seek permission to do X? From who? What am I, where am I seeking permission from? That presupposes it's, somebody in another position outside of myself that says it's okay to do that. Who is that? And why do they have that control over what I'm doing?
 
Dan Sullivan: You know, but I think you're making a fundamental statement about the world we live in, especially the world of social media, that, you know, that people can commit suicide because they get bad messages on social media. You know, they can. And I'm saying at some point they've granted permission to people outside of themselves to have judgments and opinions that they need to feel good about themselves. That's all I can wonder. I mean, I've never done social media, like period. You know, I wouldn't know how to go on any of the social media platforms because I never saw it as something that would be important to my daily existence. You know, but I just wonder if you wrote a book called Creative Careers and you taught at university, you're a professor at the university, where you talked about people who were looking for careers where the activity was creative and some of them don't make it. And I'm just wondering the ones that don't make it, they've got a social filter that they can't create something unless they get permission before they create it.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Well, I think there's a whole host of reasons. I mean, first of all, there's a distinctive difference between you and a 14-year-old kid. And that 14-year-old kid looking at social media, and let's say they're getting bullied or whatever, and that they don't have the foundation at home to cope with that kind of attack, if you will. And I think, well, I don't think we know that can be brutalizing to a young person. So I think they need protections that we don't in terms of looking out for them. And they're not formed yet. And that can be very tough. And of course, it's not just the social media that puts them over the edge. I think it's, for whatever reason, let's call it lack of foundation. Maybe at home, who knows? But it's a complicated thing and it's tragic. But you know we're not them and but you weren't them at 14 either.
 
Dan Sullivan: Well no, I don't think I was.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: And I don't think that you were either but that doesn't make me any less compassionate for them
 
Dan Sullivan: No, no, I'm not saying that we shouldn't see if we can stop it. I'm just trying to get a distinction because the woman who was, and it was about being an artist, a creator of art. And what gave you permission to do that? And it really strikes me that she's asking the question. If you ask a person who is an artist who gave him permission to do it, it's you're totally missing the whole point of being an artist. You're missing the whole point of the reality of being an artist. You don't ask for permission, you just do it.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah, how do you ask permission to originate something?
 
Dan Sullivan: What are you really asking? Yeah, but you know, I coach entrepreneurs and they obviously have given themselves permission to get started and succeed as an entrepreneur. You know, I mean, if you're going to use the permission, who's giving you permission while I'm giving myself permission, you know, to do it. But even there, they reach a point where not all of them feel confident to go forward.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: You know, to me, the thing is, the better question, I think, isn't, you know, about, do you seek permission or whatever? The real question is, why do you want to do that? You know, because you're willing to put up with opposition because you want something on the other side of that opposition. You want to realize your idea, manifest your idea, the reward for it, whatever it is. And to me, it's got nothing to do with permission. It's something you want to do, and why do you want to do it?
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, and you don't have the capability when you get the idea. You see the picture. I often tell the entrepreneurs at The Strategic Coach, I say, you know, what you call your goals is just, and I said, check me out whether I'm saying something true here. I said that you have a picture of yourself in the future operating at a higher level. You're producing bigger, better results at a higher level. Isn't that what your goals are? And they say, well, you know, I don't think of it that way because I've got a house that's a lot better than mine. But I said, what created the house is you operating at a higher level of capability, you know, and everything else. I think it's just a future picture of you. And then there's constraints. I mean, you don't have the capability now. So what are the constraints that you have to negotiate your way through? And what it is, you have to create higher value for someone else to be where you are. You know, you got to make a more compelling offer to the world to get a higher result, a greater reward. But I'm, I'm just interested because knowing that or not knowing that she's really onto a big topic, this interviewer, but I've never heard anybody who's really creative. And I have a lot of them, you know, hundreds of them where the word permission ever really meant anything to them.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Oh, well, that's right. At least none that ended up doing that for a living.
 
Dan Sullivan: That's right. Yeah.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah, it's not an uncommon question.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, but what I mean, the question is, is the interviewer creative?
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Well, is she?
 
Dan Sullivan: Yes. She's an artist.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: She's an artist. And, you know, I think in my case, a lot of it had to do with the fact it's interesting because it's not like my parents were enlightened. I mean, part of it is since they both worked full time and own their own business, they were busy. And if I occupied myself and wasn't breaking things and the police weren't showing up at the house, go with it, and then they would look at it and enjoy it. They'd say, oh, that's cool. They liked it. But I think part of it was just the practical day-to-day living, they had a lot to do. And I wasn't a kid that required management.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, I would say the same for me. It's really interesting because along the conversation of what will people think, I said, actually, other people don't spend much time thinking about you at all. You're kind of in a Free Zone, if you can take advantage of it. I said, what will people think about me? And I said, one, very little and not very often.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: No, it's just true.
 
Dan Sullivan: I mean, everybody leads a full-time life dealing with themselves, you know, and you don't really come up as, you know, you don't really come up as a topic of interest very much. So you just got an enormous amount of freedom. You can get away with an enormous amount before anyone even notices.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: That's true. Which takes me to another one of the words out there or phrases out there, which also drives me crazy because I don't really understand what it means. So how do you show up? Well, I walked here and then knocked on the door, you opened it, and here I am. It was the right address. It was the right address. What else did I need? I mean, well, no, I mean, you know, do you show up as the best version of yourself? And see, you know, I only have this one version. Sometimes it's more engaging than others, but I only have this one. It's not like I have like an overcoat I can put on. I'm going to put on the best version of myself. And I hear that kind of stuff. And it's like, what the fuck are you talking about? You know, how many versions of you are there? And which one am I talking to now? What is that? I'm sure you've heard that phrase. Am I correct?
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, I mean, you know, in the book that you and I just wrote, the Casting Not Hiring, we have a thinking tool, and the thinking tool has a section called performance. And I have four words there. And I found that I created this tool about 10 years ago, and I haven't changed the words. I want you to show up alert, curious, responsive, and resourceful. When you're with me, I don't care how you are with other people, but when you're with me, you have to do this. So how would that relate to the thing of showing up? Because I'm telling the person, when you're with me, you have to show up with these four qualities.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: And so to me, what you're saying is these are the personality traits that I require in order to be working together. I want you to be prompt, I want you to be curious, productive. I think it's that, it's not, yeah, leave that shitty version of yourself at home. I only want the best version of you to show up here. And here's how I define best.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. No, I mean, it is. I have a rule that you can't when I'm talking about a new idea, you can't frown. Oh, I have one great, great team member and you've met her, Cathy Davis. But Cathy, you'll say something and she'll go—I said, I'm sorry, Cathy, you have to do this by yourself. You can't frown when you're with me. You just can't, because it demoralizes me, it demoralizes me, and you can't do that to me. So you can ask a question, you can do that, but you can't frown. And so she does, she says, I have some frowning time to do before I respond to your idea. I said, that's great, but not in my presence. You just can't do it in my presence. Anyway.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: That relates back to what you said in terms of being vulnerable.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: You know, because, you know, I don't want to get a negative response from you. We're trying to develop something and that discourages development.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just don't I just don't want that. Anyway. But it's really, really interesting. You know, I just read a book, you sent me the book Charlatan, which was about this very charismatic medical quack, you could call it a medical quack, who had a huge following and he was gifted at self-promotion, he was gifted at radio broadcasts, he was gifted at advertising in the 1920s and 30s. And funny thing, after I finished that book, a couple days later I came across a book called Empire of Deception. And it's about the greatest swindler in the United States before Bernie Madoff. And he was a Chicago—Leo Koretz, Cortez, Koretz, not quite sure the name, but it's called Empire and happened in the same time period that the John Brinkley story that you did. And he was a business lawyer and he was short of money. So he started creating mortgages that didn't exist and he would sell the mortgages to people. And so the money came in and then it was interesting. This guy pulled it off for 16 years, 16 years. And it got bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And he was selling oil properties in Panama. He was selling rice fields in Arkansas, you know, and none of it existed. There wasn't any of it existed. It was just paper, but he was very gifted at creating authentic looking deeds and authentic looking mortgages and everything like this.
 
But, you know, we've talked about Bernie Madoff before and I said, how did they get along with this? And the main thing is only swindle rich people, don't swindle, And because they're embarrassed, socially embarrassed, to let it be known that they've been swindled. And he took advantage of that. He took advantage of the fact that if I swindled them, they wouldn't tell anybody because it made them look like a fool. But a fantastic book, you know. And part of it was that nobody talked to anybody else. And then the other thing is that he would refuse your money. He would refuse your money. And they said, no, no, it's completely sold out. And he said, I'm sorry, I can't accept your money. And that only made them want more money and want more to invest. And he said, look, one of the stocks has come free and you've been so insistent I'm going to sell it for you. And then he charged him 10 times more because they got a chance to do it. But the thing I'm relating this to is, how does he show up? He showed up beautifully to everybody he needed in every situation, but he switched roles and he switched that. So the question, how do you show up means that there's alternative possibilities.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Right. I think that's, that's right. But that's different than, you're talking about being prepared and knowing your audience. You know, as opposed to, you know, always show up as the best version of yourself, which I don't even know what that means.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: You know, but if you know that you're going to be doing a pitch, then you've got your quiver full of arrows that you're going to shoot at this person. And sometimes it can just be withholding. You know, I'm sorry, we're sold out. You know, there is one possibility. There is something, and I can let you have it. I mean, it's—it's not a sure thing yet. Yeah, I have to check. I gotta be sure.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, we have to check, and I have to make some other arrangements here to free up this. And I'll need the money right away.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah. There's a lot of people that want it, but I'm offering it to you because you're special and I need the money right away. Tells you immediately you're going to get conned. Pay attention to how it's talked about.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. It was very, very interesting to read this book right after the book that you sent me because both the first book and the second book said something about America, okay? And we started this morning because you had sent me an article by David Brooks on the dopamine addictions that people have in America right now. And then at the end of one paragraph, he said, well, dopamine created America. So I'm not sure exactly where this is going, but I'm trying to get to sort of relate it back to our main topic for the podcast is, are you someone who needs permission to do something new?
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah, and I think that, you know, what's interesting, what Brooks's article made me think about, which I thought was an interesting article, was that what I think is really important to have for what you do, I have them, you have them, which is standards. So like you were articulating those four things you need for somebody, you know, in order to really qualify to work for you.
 
Dan Sullivan: Work with me.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yes. Yeah. And which, you know, I, I feel the same way. And what are the standards? If something to me, there is, I don't operate in a world of, well, that's good enough. That to me is that I'm not delivering on the promise. How do I make this as good as I can with the talents that I have and the talents that I've enlisted that we all bring us to the stage? And Sheldon and I were talking about that last night, because we've been having a really tough time filling one of the parts in the play in London. And what we know from working with each other now for seven years almost is we don't compromise on standards. We don't settle. You know, and that's, and our standards are clear in terms of what it is, because sometimes you can figure, oh, it just takes too much work. And I think that's part of what was really interesting about Brooks's article is because we're so geared these days to go towards the easiest, fastest solution. And when you go for the easiest, fastest solution, you're usually going for the worst one. And, you know, you didn't build Strategic Coach and essentially create the field of entrepreneurial coaching because you had low standards and you figured I can quickly make a ton of money doing this. You have built the respect that you have in that field, which is tremendous, by the fact that you have created something over the course of 40 years plus.
 
Dan Sullivan: 50.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: 50 years plus. You look younger than that, so I just said 40. And that comes from having standards. And not settling. You don't look at, I don't think, I mean, we've known each other for, what, 12 years at least, or 14 years, I don't remember. Actually since 2008, I think. So 16 years, is it? And you don't settle. You don't think this tool is good enough. And I don't think you build an enduring business by deception or just doing what's minimally necessary to satisfy whatever. I think you always take it beyond that.
 
Dan Sullivan: Well, the next quarter it has to be better, you know. I mean, my whole life is quarters. They're quarterly jumps. You know, I have a way of saying it's good enough for this quarter, but it's not good enough for next quarter. good enough because, you know, you have to present what you have. But the other thing is more and more it's, I don't put the emphasis on what I'm thinking about. I put the emphasis on what they're thinking about, you know, because it's really thinking about their thinking that the coaching is for. But it seems sort of endless to me, you know, that I don't see an end in this. There's no end. There's no destination I'm trying to get to. I just want the quality to go up every quarter.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Right. I do believe, and I think I said this last week, that quality is the best business plan and quality endures. It's interesting in the papers this week, Ralph Lauren's business has been going up as the luxury business has been taking a hit lately. And Ralph, to his credit, has never, ever let up on his standards. And that has always been paramount. And the other thing that he has that most companies don't is a consistent message. So between the consistency and the enduring quality over a long period of time, he's been in business now for 57 years, I think, something like that, 55 years, a long time, whatever it is. I mean, he started in ‘67, so you can do the math. But the point is that I think there are so many things, and this is, I think, one of the things Brooks was pointing out, there's so many things that are just geared towards quick, fast, and everything's faster. And when everything's faster, to me, that also, the unspoken part of that is a much higher rate of disposability. And you, me, Ralph, looking for things that have what you said, it's unending. It is a process that is unending. And the longer I do it, the better I get at it, which I think is really, really critical.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, well, the other thing, it has a very definite impact on how old you think you are. And what I noticed, I said, you know, I'm the same age, I'm just 50 years down the road with it, you know, but I don't feel old in the process, you know, because every quarter there's risk, every quarter requires courage, every quarter requires greater teamwork, every quarter requires being more alert to what people really need right at this moment. So I just see it as a perpetual process, you know, and I know at a certain point, you know, nature says, okay, that's long enough. I get out here. But I said, you know, I know death is really good at what it does. I'm not going to give death any assistance.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: That's right. Yes, I'm trying to keep the old man out. But I would say what that list that you just had, I would replace, you know, every quarter requires this, this, and this. It's Dan requires this, this, and this. It's you as the driving force behind it. And I think because you are, I don't know this, but I am, because I didn't know you 40 years ago, but I'm guessing, if anything, you're more curious now than you were then.
 
Dan Sullivan: I'm more ambitious, that's for sure.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Because you were struggling more back then.
 
Dan Sullivan: Oh, yeah.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: And now you have the luxury to engage in other ideas and other things. And, you know, it's not like I can't wait ‘till I can devote my things, you know, my mind to something else because I really want to play poker. It's, I really wanted to go fishing. It's, you really wanna build on what you've been doing. You know, so I think that's it for us.
 
Dan Sullivan: I wanna bet on theater producers.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah, there you go. Yeah, I'm happy to have been the beneficiary of that. But you know, why do you think it is that so often people feel compelled to go with quick and cheap, whether it's in food or other pursuits. You know, there's the fast fashion, but that's not a world you would necessarily know about. But in even a lot of people we know in the direct marketing world and so on, that's like really quick. You can do this really quick. You can start a business like that. You can 10 times your business like that. And we know that doesn't happen.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, I keep going back to the, before we started the podcast today, I keep going back to this social filter, you know, that being good at quick is a social status. You know, it's, you know, you're always up to date with fashions and everything like that. And my sense is that there's a filter that a lot of people have that the people who are actually creating things don't have. Okay. Except a lot of the people who are creating things, according to the David Brooks article, are now junkies of creating new things, you know. And what I don't see is a sense of longevity. I just don't see the sense that, you know, I kind of have the goal of being the same over 80 years. At 80, I'm pretty close to the 8-year-old. Not much has changed. A lot more skills, a lot more knowledge, a lot more supporting structures in my life. But pretty well, I'm still the 8-year-old wandering the field. And you're the 8-year-old or the 10-year-old showing movies in your basement and charging admission.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah. Well, I think you're right. I mean, and I've talked to Ralph Lauren about this because, you know, Ralph was often faulted for not being innovative in fashion, you know, that these other designers that were making major statements, Ralph made the most major statement. He became the most significant and largest designer business in the United States, and I think possibly the world. That may have changed, but the point is, he has always been based on consistency and has always resisted the pressure to bow to trends. Because the trends are the kind of jargon you and I are making fun of. It'll become something else. There'll be some other words and catchphrases, you know, to replace that. And so that longevity you're talking about goes back, I believe, to what I was saying in terms of quality endures. And, you know, and the way that you maintain quality is you continue to care, you continue to innovate, and you continue to learn. So the curiosity, again, is always the fuel to keep making it better. Because other people would say, well, Dan, you know, you don't need to fix something that isn't broken. So why are you creating more work for yourself? Why are you?
 
Dan Sullivan: Feels good.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: You want to, right?
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. Our beginning discussion was what generates the internal drug dopamine. I mean, what gives you dopamine? And my sense is alertness gives you dopamine. Curiosity gives you dopamine. Responsiveness gives you dopamine. Resourcefulness. Doing things faster, easier, cheaper, bigger. Being a hero gives you dopamine, you know, and everything. So I think there's a lot of internal habits that really skillful people—and if you're in pursuit of quality, I think there's a whole different set of habits, dopamine-generating habits that you do, and someone's who's pursuing quantity. And actually, in the end, the quality wins out in the quantity to, you know, I mean, the quantity never lasts very long. The quality lasts forever.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Well, what you're saying is really interesting and I'm not quite sure how to articulate it. I'm going to try clumsily because Margaret (my wife) and I were talking about these designers who were when she was a model in the seventies and eighties. And, you know, I was doing the video work and so on. There's a whole group of models who at the time were getting on the cover of the fashion magazines and all of that. And she worked for many of them. I did work for a lot of them. Long gone. Long gone. Those brands did not endure. The brands that did endure took on new lives, whether it's through other family members like in Prada or Versace. And it's, you could say the same thing in terms of other kinds of companies. Some of the automobile companies, you know, those Disney, you know, long-lasting companies, because they provided a product that the public wanted, but they were always going also towards what's next. And now as we've gotten older, there's a whole shift of those people who were known for this window of time. And they've disappeared. And it's kind of interesting. I mean, it happens in the art world. You know, it happens in all of those different worlds. And there are some of those authors that endure and many that don't. Most don't. But, you know, books are kind of an aggregating functions. That's a product that you aggregate and keep on your shelves. But yes, I think it's really interesting because there is always a replenishing of who captures the attention now.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah. And I think it's hard when you've been around a long time.
 
Dan Sullivan: Well, and who has captured the attention for the longest period of time to, you know, yes. I think this is a Charlie Munger, you know, who is Warren Buffett's partner, Charlie, just died about six months ago. And he said, you know, your question about a stock investment should be what gives me the highest rate of return for the longest period of time? I think it's any area of quality is the question. What gives me the highest sense of quality for the longest period of time?
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah, I think that's right. And that translates into every business. I mean, every business is faced with that challenge and goal, I would say.
 
Dan Sullivan: And there's a point where, you know, I remember Starbucks when they first started. It was a real high-quality experience because America really, I mean, unless you lived in, you know, probably New York had it, some other places had it, where Italian type of coffee was part of your daily life and you liked the taste of the, you know, strong espresso coffee. But what Howard Schultz did is he brought that whole tradition into the American culture, you know. And it was great when he had 600 stores all across the country. It wasn't great when he had 6,000 stores, you know. And, I mean, we were at the airport and I, Babs, we had about two hours before the plane left, and I said, you know, she said, I'm going to Starbucks, would you like something? And I said, yeah, I'd like an Americano with a little bit of milk. And she came back, and it was undrinkable. It was just undrinkable. Because that person, first of all, it's not a barista anymore, it's a machine. And that machine has been programmed to economize the most amount of money for the least amount of coffee. I mean, it's programmed into the directions of the machine. And Howard Schultz himself has reflected in a regretful way. He said that at a certain point, we lost the culture, we lost the quality. And when you lose it, you can't get it back.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Well, I think that's one of the real challenges when you go public, because the demands of earnings outweigh everything else. You know, I mean, look what's going on at Disney now with Iger and Chap, I forget, Chapnick or whoever Iger had promoted to take over, then Iger had to come back and there's just a whole bunch of power struggle going on at Disney. Certainly an enduring company, a global brand, but I think their stock is less than half than what it was at its height. And I think we were talking before we started recording about HBO and The Sopranos. And what they, Albrecht, who was head of HBO at that point, he had a, and I'd read other articles about him, he had a basic philosophy, since he didn't, as he claimed, didn't really know what he was doing, because they were pioneering a new area, is hire people who are really good at what they do and get out of their way. And so David Chase, who originated as Sopranos, who had been turned down everywhere else, was taken on by HBO and they financed it. And at first he was just even shocked that they did it because nobody else wanted it. But he also knew that because it was cable and not dependent on advertisers, they could push the boundaries of taboo. They could have profanity, they could have violence, they could have sexuality, all these things on there.
 
And what it ended up doing is the chance that they took the gamble, the guesses and bets, created one of the most highly acclaimed programs of all time. And that was because smart management allowed the people who they hired to do the job. And that so rarely happens. It's kind of interesting that it doesn't happen more often. But I don't know why that is. I don't know whether because if I was in that position, I'd like to think my ego was sufficiently stroked by the fact that I said, go for it. And that turned out so well. And the people who did so well under my regime were so happy because they got to express their unique creative ideas in something that is enduring. And I think that that's a real thing when, you know, HBO is now a shadow of its former self because the management has changed, the ownership has changed. And, you know, like with Starbucks, it's bound to get more diluted.
 
Dan Sullivan: Well, it's the switch from quality to quantity. Yeah.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. And that's really interesting. The moment they did, they had to put more sugar in their drinks.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Oh, is that so?
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. Yeah.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah, I'm still amazed, especially I don't drink Starbucks coffee. I don't like it. It tastes over-roasted to me or whatever it is, but I would go into a Starbucks early on when I first started drinking it, which, when it was more okay. And I see these people literally getting an 800 calorie, you know, something with whipped cream and all this stuff on, take them like 11 minutes to order it.
 
Dan Sullivan: Frappuccino.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: By the way, what was really interesting about Starbucks is one of the main things that they're suffering from now is too many options. So it takes too long for the baristas to go through all the various ingredients when somebody wants this, because basically you can customize every drink, which means more people are more frustrated because they're waiting in line longer and don't want to do that. And if you've got, I would guess, and this is just out of the air, six variations on coffee is probably enough. How many different variations?
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. Yeah. Is there anywhere where I can just get a cup of black coffee?
 
Jeffrey Madoff: That's right. That's under six dollars. Right.
 
Dan Sullivan: I just want a cup of black coffee. I don't want to …
 
Dan Sullivan: Anyway. Okay. Well, I think we've squeezed the lemon on this one, but it was a really good concept. And, you know, I think this is one of those, you know, I think more and more, our podcasts are really heading in the direction. When have you compromised quality so much that you now it's only quantity that you can go for. ‘Cause then you've lost, you know, you've lost any lasting value.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Well, and at what is the threshold where you are willing to compromise in order to please? And what does that do to what you're doing? And next time I'll share what happened to me, which was a great lesson that fortunately I learned it earlier in my career. But yeah, I think this is interesting. It's good that we gave ourselves permission to show up as our best selves to discuss this topic.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, I thought you were unusually vulnerable today. You mean honest?
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah.
 
Dan Sullivan: Anyway, yeah. Well, I give you permission to do it again.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Well, I think we have fit into that playground we've given ourselves, which is anything and everything.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: So thank you all for listening and listen to us again. I want to say thanks to my friend, Dan Sullivan. This is Jeff Madoff. Have a great couple of weeks. Actually, have a great life. Why limit it to a couple of weeks? Thanks for joining us today on our show, Anything and Everything. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend. For more about me and my work, visit acreativecareer.com and madoffproductions.com. To learn more about Dan and Strategic Coach, visit strategiccoach.com.